Ep 15: How to Design Your Product So It Sells Fast (Part 2 Finding the Right Interior Designer)

Today we're going to talk about how the right designer can maximize your ROT - Return On Time.

Yes, designers can be expensive, but the right designer will allow you to concentrate on your strengths, while turning your project into an investment that sells fast.

A good designer also has the potential of pre-selling your investment. A huge win as you build out the project.

Tim Murphy will share the story of his first experience with a designer that opened his eyes to not only the price of their work, but the importance of having someone that is a "team player" (spoiler alert: She was not)

The designer Robert uses for his projects is also his wife, which adds a unique dynamic to their relationship.

Tim maps out the components to a team that maximizes your ROT. Your time is valuable, spreading it thin could doom the return on your invvestment.

This episode is about finding the right people to maximize your time.

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In This Episode (timed with Video)….

03:31 Managing your ROT (Return On Time)

04:27 Tim's first project with an interior designer, and the reality of how much they cost.

09:41 Why a fixed fee structure is so important

13:30 Why good designers are worth the money

13:45 How Tim met the designer he still works with today, and why

21:16 What new investors overlook for short-term money

25:28 What you really need to consider before taking on an interior design project yourself

28:57 How Robert Grand met his current designer, and now wife

38:21 How to work with vendors

46:03 How your designer can help you PRESELL your investment

The Value Driven Investor Podcast is produced by Digital Legend Media in Minneapolis. #BuildYourLegend at www.digitallegendmedia.com

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Full Transcript

(00:00):

5 4, 3, 2, 1. We're back at the value driven investor podcast. And

(00:08):

I'm super excited because again today, my good friend, Bob grant is on Bob. And how the heck are you doing great. Still in Hawaii. I think I live here now. I live right now. Yeah. Bob grant is on, what is it? About five or six days. You're going to be in Hawaii.

(00:25):

Yeah. Like 12. Yeah. I don't come home for the Sunday. I mean, depending on when you're listening to this, but yeah. Total of 12 days.

(00:34):

Awesome life on your terms, man. That's what it's all about, right? It is pretty nice. That's awesome. Yeah. And so, so I just want to let everybody know that yeah, we do prerecord some of these podcast episodes. Um, and we do actually record them in batches because you know what, if you've ever tried to do a podcast and tried to run multiple different businesses and tried to get vacation time, um, it's hard not to batch your episode. So you know what we are going to have live episodes and we are going to do more, um, real-time content because we think that there's a ton of value in that. But on the flip side, we also on some of these heavier items and these, I would say more educational podcasts that are a little bit more lengthy. Um, Bob and I are really trying to batch them because we have to maximize our time.

(01:24):

Uh, and isn't that funny because today we are going to be talking about how the right designer can maximize your rot return on time. Now, if you are the guy that's sitting there doing your own project, which I've met a lot of guys, and there was a point I never had picked up a hammer or done the actual construction work, but I probably done everything else, including the design of, uh, and management of the design of the smaller projects that I used to do back in the day. Uh, but if you're the guy and I, I'm thinking of one guy that I know in particular, that literally, he feels like, you know what, when on these first couple deals, I think I'm going to do everything. And I mean, what I told him, I said, what do you mean everything? Well, we got to frame this up.

(02:12):

I'm going to do it. We got to install the bathroom. I'm going to do it. We got to lay the tile. I'm going to do it. We gotta do some, uh, well, I'm not going to do the plumbing, electrical, cause that would make sense because of liability. Okay. That's smart. Uh, but we got to paint. I'm going to do it. We got to, I'm like, man, I go, who's going to design it. Well, I'm going to do it and who's going to sell it. Well, I'm going to do it. And I'm just like this, guy's doing everything like quite literally doing everything. And you know what, he told me this before he started the project. And then I said, well, you know what, I'm going to keep in touch with you. And if you ever need anything, you just reach out to me. He goes, okay, thank you.

(02:46):

I really appreciate it. And we had lots of conversations back and forth along the way to, you know, help any way that I could. But then at the end, when I asked him, Hey man, what was it like? I mean, it wasn't even, I didn't even have to think about it because I looked on face and he was just like, I mean, it was just like, it sucked the life out of him literally. And I knew it would because there's no way you can do all this number one in scale of business. But number two and not just feel like you ran a hundred, not, not a marathon, a hundred mile race with new, would you agree with that?

(03:22):

I a hundred percent agree with that is one of the hardest things to do. And I've been that guy. So I'm not going back there. Ain't happening. Yeah.

(03:31):

Yeah. And so, you know what, when we're talking about return on time, we talked about the contractor and how he can help you, uh, really manage your return on time. Well, now we're talking about the designer and how can she really, she or he can really manage your return on time. Now I want to start off with the story because, and there's actually two stories because I think that stories are the most powerful thing. When you really try to understand what's the value of this topic that we're talking about today. Um, and it starts with this. My first experience working with the designer was when I moved from doing smaller scale homes into doing my first 4 5400 $50,000, um, rehab, just, it wasn't a pop top. It wasn't, it was basically, we went into this, I think it was like a 1970s, early 1970s, um, uh, uh, mid-century modern house.

(04:27):

And it was really different. I mean, I had never done a mid-century modern rambler before, and you can just feel like it had that mid century nostalgia to it. And I was like, I told my general contractor and I also told my business partner at the time. I said, man, I, I feel like we need a designer on this because I feel like you have to do this right. Or you could really screw it up. And both my contractor and my business partner at the time said, you know what Murph, I think you're right. And then the other thing was, is I was in, I was breaking, this was literally my first property breaking into the C Dinah Minnesota market, which is the elite market, um, in the Minneapolis area. Now there's another area, uh, out it's called lake Minnetonka. That's a pretty elite area, but this in the city, as far as a first ring suburb of the actual city, Minneapolis is the number one elite area that you can be in.

(05:22):

And so I was really excited about that, but I also was kind of intimidated. Like these are, these are real deal buyers and we're going into a real deal market. We gotta have a designer. And so I talked to my general contractor and I had done several projects with them and he had done that back. You know, we were, this was like in the middle of the crash, like this was 2009 or 2010. Like this crash was still very strong. Uh, you know, the, the big recession. And I told him, I said, Hey, big, you know, big was his name Figgy. And I said, Hey, fig, you know what, man, do you know anybody? Cause I know, you know, before the crash you were doing a lot of high-end houses, like he was doing, you know, kitchens for like a hundred fifty, a hundred seventy five, and it's just a kitchen, $175,000 kitchens.

(06:11):

And so he's like, you know what, you're right. Murph. I do have a lady that has worked with a lot of high-end clients on million dollar houses. We should have asked her if she'd be willing to do this. One thing led to another, I called her up, Figgy called her up. We said, Hey, would you do this project for us? And she's like, well, yeah, that would be fun. Um, and so we brought her on and she was like $10,000. And then I was like, what, 10 grand to design? Because I was blown away like $10,000 to design this little house and what am I going to get for that? And why can't I just do it myself and man that's right about out of my pocket, you know, like it was, yeah, it was like shocking to me.

(06:58):

He goes, what do you expect, man? These ladies aren't cheap. And I was like, okay, I see, okay, they're artists, right? They deserve to get paid. And I have nothing against anybody and their talents. Everybody deserves to get paid, what somebody is willing to pay them. That is not a problem. All I have the utmost respect for that, but it's just shocking when you don't have perspective on what things cost. And I didn't have that perspective. So I want to cut the story as quick as I can. But what happened was is that we went through the whole process of designing out this house. The, I expected a lot for $10,000 where I was let down was number one. I am, I'm a big believer that the designer and anybody that I bring on my team should be a team player. They shouldn't be, I be trying to set a precedent that they lead the show or that they know better than me or that I shouldn't have opinion in something or that who am I, you haven't designed anything for anybody.

(08:02):

Um, and that was really the number one thing that that was the five that I got, uh, not right off the bat, but you know, not too far into the project. And I can tell you this, you know, as a person like myself, very strong-willed strong minded guy, just like Bob. Um, it just doesn't rub me very well when you, you tell me, like, I shouldn't have a say because you're the designer and I'm paying you to take care of the design, but yet this is my property and I'm the one taking on all of the risks. And I also am a real estate agent that actually has a little bit of knowledge about what the buyer, the consumer wants, why isn't that valuable to you? And so that was a big red flag for me right off the bat. But then after that, what happened was, is as we kept going and as she, she under budgeted in her mind, she said, I have more time in this than I expected have into this.

(08:56):

And I said, well, why do you have so much time into it? Well, because I, I didn't know I was going to have to do this and this and this and this and that. And I didn't know that I was going to have to even show the buyer, you know, because we had actually had a buyer come in before, um, before we were finished with the project. So we re, we asked her to come on over and, and walk this buyer through her design and what, what was going to be there. Well, I didn't know, I'd have to do that. And so what happened was she says, well, you need to start paying me hourly. I go, okay. So I'm going to pay you $10,000 and then I need to start paying you hourly. Now she goes, yeah, because I'm way past my hourly rate here at a fixed fee of $10,000.

(09:41):

Because again, I'm a huge believer in fixed fee. You know, when you're, when you're building out a project, you don't want variable rate because you don't necessarily know where you're going to end up. Whereas if you have fixed fee, then you know, okay, it's going to cost me $10,000 for this and you can break it all down and you can have a really good idea of what your bottom line is going to be. Um, so the second she said, okay, I want to go into, uh, you know, you pay me for my time and more of a variable rate pay here on top of the fixed fee. We already negotiate. I can tell you at that point, I was like, game over. I'm done. Like, I'm like, no, you know what? I think that we're good. I think we've gotten everything we need. And I think I can handle it from here.

(10:21):

And at that point I severed the relationship because I couldn't handle how my relationship was going with the site designer because it wasn't the person that I wanted to play ball with. It wasn't the person that I wanted on my team. And quite honestly, I didn't even feel like she was on my team. I just felt like she was, you know, this designer who thought that I should just do whatever she thinks I should do. And you know what, that's just how it's going to go. And that's my story from hell, I guess, is that, you know, I had a designer and I, but, but I'm glad it happened right away because then I realized what I didn't want. And I think we all are gonna make mistakes. We all are going to fall on our face. We're all going to come across experiences that were like, gosh, I wish I would've known better, but that's the beauty of building something is that you learn something every single day. And I learned that is not the designer. I want to work with grand. Ho what do you think about that story?

(11:21):

Yeah. I mean, the key points you pulled out of that right there, you know, it's like, you know, fixed fees are really important when you're working, especially in a newly established relationship with somebody and the team aspect, nobody wants to play, um, or work with somebody who doesn't, who isn't going to be part of the team. And I think those are the two key points I got from your story. And I mean, it was smart for you to sever that relationship as quickly as possible. And you know, maybe there's a team for that person, but it's not on your team. So, and obviously you've done a lot of business since then, and she's probably missed by not being a team player, you know, cause you probably would've worked better with her and you might've found value in it. You know, somebody might've found value in that,

(12:00):

So. Right. And you know, that leads me to my second story. So, I mean, I told you the painful story and now I want to tell you a great story. Because after that I was very apprehensive about working with designers. I thought every designer was going to be like that. And I especially think, and I, I think even to today, uh, and I try not to be biased, but I think that the more you pay for a designer, probably the worst, she's going to be like that lady that I had to work with because there has to be ego with the amount of dollars that some of these ladies get paid men or ladies. But most of the people that I'm talking to are usually women designers. Um, but I'm not trying to be biased. Uh, but yeah, I mean, I know designers that literally are getting paid 20 and $30,000 to design multimillion dollar houses.

(12:49):

And it just blows my mind. I'm just like, you know what, I'm not going to say that they don't deserve it because you know what, some of the things that they design are like, I just look at it and I'm like, that's cool. Those are the pictures that you're looking on. Pinterest. And you're looking on house.com and you're like, I want that. I want that. I want that. And the contractor laughs and he goes, you don't even know what that costs do you and the, and the Homer was like, no, but I want it. And he's like, that's probably a $2 million house that you're looking at right there, that kitchen or that sunroom or that great room. And you think you're going to get all that for your budget of $50,000? Well we'll can I know?

(13:30):

Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, again, these designers are well worth it and I'm not taking anything away from them because they deserve it and they're artists, but it's just, you know what, it's, I have that perception in my mind because of the experience. Now let me go to the next story. The next story starts with, uh, her name is Jill and she worked with me in my office as more of an admin assistant around my real estate business. And it came to the point where Jill was just came up to me and said, Tim, I really would like to meet with you. And I was like, okay, let's sit down. And so we sat down for a meeting and she just goes, Tim, you know, I've been doing a lot of admin assistant work for real estate agents and I'd been doing it for you for what about a year?

(14:12):

A little bit over a year. And she goes, you know, this just doesn't light my fire. I'm just not excited about doing admin real estate stuff. I think I need to do something different. I'm like Jill, you know what? I'm a huge proponent of helping people do and follow their passion. And I said, what do you want to do? And this was exactly at the moment. I mean, literally at the moment where I was going from doing these smaller bank owned deals to literally talking about and about to execute on my first infill development project. Um, and she goes, you know what? I would really love to be an interior designer and design houses. I really think that I have an eye for it. Now. She goes, I know, I know I don't have an education. I'm not, I haven't gone to a design school, but she's like, I, you know, I, she had helped and she was helping me on like staging my houses, uh, giving colors, examples to our sellers, um, taking the seller stuff and kind of like putting it in different places and making the house look great.

(15:14):

So she was already doing some staging stuff for me as an agent on our team, which was a huge value add. But then you're talking about, okay, well, do I ask her to design an $850,000 house? Like literally from top to bottom with me. And I looked at it and I said, you want to design houses? Huh? She goes, yeah. I go, well, I got an $850,000 project. That'll be my first project. How about we just do that together? And she looked at me, I'll never forget. And she goes, w what, what did you say? I go, yeah, I have an $850. It's not a project. Can I go? I feel the same way, but I go, Jill, I trust him. Like I trust you. I know you're a team player. I know you have a good heart. I know we work good together. Do you want to give this a shot with me?

(16:01):

And let's design off. This house is $850,000 house. And she looked at me and she's seriously, it took her a while to be like, okay, what am I getting into? I didn't think he would do this, but he kind of does do this. Okay, fine. I'll do it. Yeah, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. And I go, okay, what is it going to cost? What w how am I going to pay you? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know how you should pay designer here. Yeah. I don't know, pay me. And, um, I said, okay, well, what's the most important thing she goes, well, obviously, you know, we're going to have to figure out this process because she goes, I've never done this. So how about along the way we just do what's fair. And I'm like, great. She goes, I go, you and I have always looked at each other and done what's fair.

(16:44):

And that's exactly what we did. And I basically just said, Jill, let's go through the process. And along the way, in certain phases of the process, tell me what you have into it. And what you think is fair. And I'm going to tell you this, Jill hasn't been nothing but fair to me for the last 10 years that I've been working with her and she's been nothing but amazing when it comes to a team player. Uh, and I absolutely love this girl. Um, and you know, so for 10 years we she's been the designer for pretty much every one of my infill development projects all the way from that eight 50 project to right now, that project that, um, I was talking about the other day in, uh, part two or part one of the designer. And, uh, pre-marketing that house over in Udina for 1.4 million we've we've done all, you know, and it's been so awesome.

(17:40):

And it it's been like, when I say team, I mean this, so truly that she's just like, Hey man, you know, how do we, cause I'm like, cause staging furniture, staging furniture with a designer is like the hardest pill to swallow when you're like, okay, how much is it going to cost me a month to have this furniture in? Well, it's going to probably be like 2,500 or 5,000 or in these big houses. I mean, it's like, you know, 5,500 a month. I'm like, oh, 5,500 a month. Well, what if I don't sell it for 90 days or 120 days? And Jill was like, you know what, him let's work this out. And every single time we've worked it out. And then it even came to the point where she's like, Tim, you know, I don't feel comfortable charging you this much money. Cause I had one that literally stayed on for a year and it was like, we were 120 days in and I had paid for $15,000 for the furniture to be in the house.

(18:33):

And I was just like, Jill, this hurts. Like what can I, what can we do? And she goes, yeah, I don't feel comfortable with this. And she goes, I'm not gonna charge you anymore. I'm like what she goes, yeah. I'm not gonna charge you anymore. I go, why she goes, because like, we'll just, it'll just work out, Tim. It always does. And I'm like, oh my gosh, you guys, like, if that didn't sum up a team player to me, like if that didn't sum up someone that you want to have on your team, I'm like, I don't know what will or what does, and that's what created loyalty with me and her for 10 years is just situations like that, where it's like, you take care of me and I take care of you. And it's a win-win. And so, you know what, she would probably even tell you, like, could she have more education?

(19:20):

Could she push even further and become a more advanced designer in whatever way people judge designers? Sure. Maybe, but I wouldn't want anybody else on my team. And that's why I've been so loyal for so long is that, you know what, that's the kind of designer I want to find and what she brings as far as team effort. And then also as far as return on time and going the extra mile is absolutely phenomenal. So if I haven't told, if I haven't given you a good, like parameter to find someone that you want as your team player, maybe there's a couple of points there that you'll get out of that story that, Hmm. Maybe that's the person that I'm looking for. Grant. I don't know. Give us a little summary. What do you think people should get out of that lesson

(20:07):

There? That's kind of that, I mean, again, I mean, that's just like the sign of a somebody who's willing to learn. You know, somebody who's who's took the initiative, had the courage to tell you they weren't happy in the job they're currently doing, and this is what they'd like to do. And, and a lot of people don't take that jump right. Or, or have the courage to do that. And I would encourage every single person to do that, you know? And I, it goes back to like one, one of the guys that wanted to work with us and building, he came over to our house and was like, Hey, I really think you guys are awesome. I want to work with you. I was like, well, let's just continue the relationship. He had the courage. Now he's one of our main people that we're using all the time, you know?

(20:43):

And so same thing with her, that's a relationship that was built because of trust, you know, and, and that person did that and she took that courage to do it. So it's like, and then you knew she was going to be a good team player. And then look what she did. You know, when you are going to be tied on a house, it sat there for a year. I mean, I can't even imagine the holding costs on a house like that. And then she, what she do, she comes and she steps up again to prove that she's a team player and you're, you're never going to sever that relationship. You know, that's going to be a lifelong relationship. It's going to be a lifelong business relationship. And she's going to get a 10 X return on that over the next 20 years.

(21:16):

Exactly. And, you know, granted, you and I talked about it all the time, like, okay, are you going to think about short-term money or are you going to think about the strength of a long-term relationship and what the ROI is on that? And I think so many people make decisions and especially when they're in survival phase that they're trying to grasp for that short term money. And they don't see what they're really truly missing with the long-term relationship. And that's something you always got to pay attention to grand Senate and multiple episodes. He goes, I'm always testing people. Everything's a test. And, and, and I remember that story with, uh, what was it, that contractor? And you're just, and the guy's like, well, I didn't know you were testing me. And grant goes, I'm always testing you. Yeah. It's like,

(21:59):

Yeah, I want to make sure you're not, I'm not being taken advantage of. It's like, you're watching right the whole time, you know? And it, you lacks it over time, right. Once that relationship's built, you know, but you're still checking in and making sure you don't get cost creep, you know, something like that. So, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's always a test,

(22:18):

So let's go into, okay. I want to summarize now. I think those stories really summarize the, you know, I was telling Grando not everything's roses, you gotta throw in some thorns. And I think I gave you a little bit of the thorn and I, and I threw out a really fantastic rose there, but now I want to talk about, you know, how your team will maximize your rot. Okay. Now your team really consists of, I think, three major players, the agent, which for grand and I, because we're such big believers in being the licensed real estate agent and having that market knowledge and having all those skills, I would say that I fit as I'm the agent, the one with the market knowledge. And I think grant is very much the same and, and grant is the CEO of his business. And so am I, and I feel like the agent is one of the top positions in a team for anyone that's redeveloping infill development, flipping houses, whatever you might be doing.

(23:10):

And what is the goal of the agent? The goal of the agent is to focus on the target market. You always have to be paying attention to who is the consumer or the avatar that we're selling this to, and is the product that we're putting together, going to be saleable at the price that we think, because we think that our avatar or target market will pay it. So the agent is a key part on your team. And I am still, I consider myself still the agent on my team because I think that position is one of the most important. And it's also one of the positions that delivers the return on time. Okay. Now, what is the next position I think is as a next important is the builder. And again, I don't know if there's really a hierarchy to, to like these, you know, agent builder and then the designer.

(23:59):

I don't know if there's a hierarchy. I don't want to do that. Um, but I Def, I definitely think that you have to look at return on time for each project and assess it. Uh, but the builder, what is the builder's main goal? The main goal of the builder is to manage costs. He's always paying attention to costs now between the builder and then the designer. So number three is the designer. Her main goal is design trend. Like when somebody walks through that house, if the designers really good at their job, that person, that wife will come to tears kind of like on the DIY show when they do the reveal. And then they're just like, oh God,

(24:40):

This is, this is mine.

(24:42):

Like, if your designer is amazing, then that's what they will do. And, and you're just like, oh my gosh, I just paid 10,000 for that designer. She was worth every penny because look at that emotional reaction, that is what a designer is after every single time. So again, who are your three key players, the agent who is focused on the target market and the avatar that you're selling to the builder is focused on costs. And the designer is focused on design trend that will match with the avatar that the agent has said, we're going after. So those are your three key players, and those are the three key players. If you are going to just go to straight CEO and you're going to hire an agent, you're going to hire a builder and you're going to hire a designer. You're going to have all three positions filled.

(25:28):

Then you have to understand, like, what is your return on time for each position? And today we're going to talk about the designer. Now you got to think about your time. That's invested in each individual project as a designer. If you were to be that guy that I told you about at the very beginning or like grand was at the very beginning, where, and me at the very beginning, when we were doing 250, $300,000 rehab projects, and you're like, well, I'm going to be the designer because I'm not going to pay somebody $10,000. Then you have to understand what am I doing? Like, what are all the little nuances of being the person who's designing the product? And if you decide to take on that responsibility yourself, trust me, I know one of you out there has done this again. We have done it. I have done it in the beginning.

(26:13):

When you first started at the 300 to $400,000 level, you know, what was everything that you did? And that's what I want to talk about here. Um, but first off I want grant, before we go into these bullet points on how a designer will maximize their time and what exactly they do, because I don't think unless you're Bob or I who've actually taken on that role of being the designer and all the intricacies of it. I don't think you're really going to know all the responsibilities that a designer has, but I want grand to start off by talking about his wife, because in, on Grant's team, it's his wife, Shelley and him. I mean, these two are like the DIY power couple. Okay. And so I want you guys, I want you to tell us a little bit at grand about, you know, number one, the relationship with Shelley, obviously your wife, but also your business partner or your designer. How does that go? And then just also, you know, give us a little bit more insight about what are her responsibilities and your responsibilities and how do you define those? Because again, you're the agent and she's the designer, your two key players on your team, but you're also married.

(27:16):

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Huh? You know, it didn't start out that way. It was just became such a good relationship. No, no. I had, I had to, I had a bond. It, no, actually it was funny. Like we were dating at the time. Um, taking it way back to when I wasn't even doing project, really. I was just focusing on real estate and, uh, and this could be a long, first, I'll make it short. But, um, we were, I was at a house. I was like, and I had a stager stage and it was hard to find staging in our area that was like, good. And I went to California for like a conference and I saw these guys as homes and I was like, he goes, oh, we always do staging this and that. And like, and so I started really piecing together the right listing, you know, the right way to do a listing, especially with a vacant home. And so I used a stager and I was not super happy with it. It looked like, you know, the 1990s staging. And so then I was kind of telling her and we were just dating and I knew she was like rehabbing her own houses and stuff. And there, everything was beautiful. That's why I love going over to her house. And we were dating just a beautiful house. And I was like, man, this is awesome.

(28:14):

And so emotional,

(28:16):

He had it pulled at my heartstrings. Um, but yeah. So then she's like, well, I could do your home staging for you, you know, and get your house. So it looks like this. I'm like, oh, you could do that. And you're like, oh yeah, I could do that. And I was like, okay, same thing. Well, how much, you know, like let's figure this out. And it was like, well, we'll just figure it out, you know, as we kind of go and, and that kind of blossomed her home staging kind of, and designed business, you know, kind of going, taking it from her, just flipping her own houses to kind of morphing it into that world. And ever since then, we've just always kind of used her for that whole process. But then, you know, it got to the point, you know, my, my brother and I kind of were taking our business, you know, that direction and getting really into the, the, the development and rehabs and all that whole process.

(28:57):

And you know, of course we're using her for the staging on all those, but then also again, it came down to that how much time do we have in the day? And we're always having conversation, you know, about the houses and what the materials should be and, and everything, and, and we'd argue back and forth. And, um, finally I was like, you know, we just need to have you working with us all the time to do this. And so that's where, you know, she came in, became the head of design for us. And so we employ her now and she works for us full time. So design and project management to, to kind of sum it up. She goes through, she figures out the project and then she's helping, you know, the site contractors, make sure everything's there and materials are dialed everything. And then she's also the one that will be, um, cutting the checks at the end of, you know, every Friday, whenever we have to make payouts to people and stuff like that.

(29:43):

So she takes on a lot of roles just because I don't have time to do it, you know, like, and I, and it's gotten to the point for me, you know, cause I do work another job where I can't be that lead agent all the time. She, my brother's kind of that lead agent. And so I'm just back making sure everybody has what they need, but you know, it's with, with her, she's just so amazing. It's like a designer has like such a unique perspective. They see things so much differently, you know, like she says, her super power is being able to see through walls. I a hundred percent agree, but she's not chopping through the walls that somebody like me and the contractors. Right. So, but she knows what she wants and she knows the look that we're always going for. And it's keeping up with those design trims. And it's just in such an interesting perspective, like we're taking you and I hours of research to figure that out. They just kind of know it, you know? And so when you recognize that person, it's, it's important, but for us, like, you know, the relationship, um, is great, but it's a work, you know, work, partnership, relationship with

(30:38):

Them. How long ago, how long, like from when you first gave her that first shot on a property to now where she's at? I mean, how, how long cause this, again, we want to give people aspect this. Yeah. This doesn't happen overnight

(30:50):

For four to five years, I think. Yeah. So that first one, I mean, we were dating, um, and then, you know, kind of that kind of morphed and just kept going. So yeah. And then I was, you know, it's like just been an amazing thing, you know, a growth that just keeps going, but you know, there's, it doesn't come without complications. Right. You know, it's like, um, there's, I feel like a lot of our life is just talking about real estate and projects and it's cool. We love it, you know, but there's times where you got to shut it down and focus on other things. But, um, you know, there's also times where I'll be sitting there just like her talking earlier 7:00 AM and she's got a lot of project stuff in her head that she's got to kind of just start bouncing it off, you know? Cause I make the huge decisions if, especially if it costs money. And so it's like 7:00 AM, I'll be sitting there drinking my coffee and be like, ah, okay. You know, and I'm just trying to just have my me time, you know, but, but you know, it, it, for the most part it's, it's always different. How do you

(31:48):

Create boundaries though? Grando like, do you have certain times of the day where you're like, Hey dude, let's not talk about this. Like maybe at dinner or maybe, you know, if you're in Hawaii sitting on the beach, I mean, where do you, how do you draw boundaries? I think that's the biggest thing.

(32:02):

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think it's just, if you want to talk about it or if you want to have the conversation outside of work, that's kind of how we leave it. You know, if, if I just, and she too, um, I think we both just have to say, Hey, you know, today, I'm just, I don't want to focus on that. You know, if we're during the work hours that the nine to five it's, it's always game on, you know, but when we're on vacation, stuff like that, it's, let's talk about it. But if one of us isn't feeling like talking about it, we just would shut it down and table it for another time. Um, because it can be, uh, work, work, work, work type thing, if you let it be. And so you gotta, you gotta balance it, you know, and same thing, you know, if you were working with your own designer, if she's calling you at 10 or 11 o'clock at night, you'd be setting boundaries pretty quick, you know, like, Hey, whoa. You know, my wife, doesn't like, uh, somebody calling me at 10 o'clock at night, you know? So that's just kind of that work-life balance. I think, you know, that's cool that everybody has it. So

(32:56):

Yeah, I really respect that because you know, it takes a lot of discipline to want to talk about something. And then the other person says, Hey, I'm just not ready for it. And you're just like, you know what? Okay. I respect that. You know, because when I'm jazzed about something, I mean, you guys can feel the energy. I'm like, I'm a bread hubbub. I'm ready to run through the wall. Like how are you going to stop? You know? And, and I'm ready to talk. I'm ready to do it. And to be able to say, okay, pull up, wait, okay. I'm gonna respect that, Bob. No problem. But we'll talk about it later. Uh, that, that says a lot. That's a lot of respect, so that's cool. Thanks for sharing that with us. Um, let's go into though the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 bullet points that I want to hit on about how a designer maximizes rot.

(33:41):

Now you guys this, again, we can talk about this for a long time. I think the story really sums up what we're trying to do and it's all about relationships. But the first thing that our designer really spends time doing that you have to ask yourself, is this, what I want to do is spending time, money and energy researching current and future design trends. Now everybody might think, you know, even Bob just said it like, oh yeah, you know, they just have a vision. They can see through walls. They don't, they, you know, it just comes to them. And I would tell you that I don't think Shelly would necessarily say that. I think that Shelly is probably scrolling on Pinterest. She's probably on some favorite website. She probably gets a magazine every once in a while. And who knows what else she does to get these ideas, because there's no way that you can stay on trend if you are not doing and spending your time and some money and a bunch of energy, uh, researching design trends.

(34:39):

So I will tell you this, if you think it's as simple as it's just the vision and it all comes to your head, you know, I think you need to really look and observe and watch what some of these really good designers do because they spend a lot of time, energy trying to stay on trend on point. And you know, if they're really like at the $1.4 million range, I'm going to hire a designer. And I expect that designer to help me create a one of a kind product. And in that one of a kind product, they better have their own ideas. They better not just have the ideas of Pinterest because of the Pinterest house. They have to come up with their own ideas and they have to love them and, and, and believe in them and stand behind them so much that they sell it to me.

(35:22):

And when they sell it to me, then I have to take the risk because that's the big thing is that the designer is going to sell you something, but who's taking the risk because like grand said, when it comes to money, it's me, it all falls on my shoulders. And so that's one of the main things. I mean, Graham, what do you have to say about, about obviously researching design trends? Do you feel like for you that that would be a good use of your time? No, I hate it. I like the look. I don't know how

(35:51):

It gets there. You know, like I like the example, like she bought a blue couch and I'm like, oh my God, like, that's a crush blue velvet couch. Like, like what, what are we doing here? You know, like, but that's a cool thing. And then yesterday, when we were, I looked at your website, I saw in that rendering, those blue couches, I was like, oh, Shelly was on point with that ahead of the time. But, and she also used to play this app was designing app all the time where she's putting these little things together and they're rating all of these designing people are rating each other and stuff. And you're just like, yeah, it is you're you're so you're a hundred percent, right. It's, it's, it's, it's almost bad for me to say, like they just understand it and know it, you know, because there's hours that is spent on researching that or when she walks into pottery barn and lady knows her by first name. So, yeah.

(36:37):

Yeah. So the next one I want to talk about is spending time creating a vision for your project. So one of my, when I hired a designer, um, and this is part of a process that I put together and it's, it's kind of like, you know, Bob, that, that property, when I showed you the other day, that, that vision, which is a 58 32 Kellogg app.com, if you go there, that's kind of the vision that we try to create. Well, so these designers have to go out and they have to meet with all the vendors and they have to have, uh, they have to do their homework and they have to come up with inspirational pictures for themselves. And then they have to go and they have to go meet with the vendors and then come up with the actual selections that meet their, their vision and their inspirational pictures. And then they have to do all these other things, put these designers, we call them vision boards together. So then I can have the agent, the marketing material that I want, and I need to go out and sell it to the market. Let me tell you, Bob, how many hours do you think they put in the back?

(37:31):

Oh yeah. God dude. I didn't even know, but yeah.

(37:34):

Yeah. Hours and hours. I mean, just think about going to the vendors and making, going and staring at tile and saying, okay, here's my vision board. I got to find that right. Piece of tile. Like just that alone could be a couple hours. So the amount of hours that they spend on creating these visions for you. So especially you can, pre-market it like I'm I like to do is hours and hours. Do I want to spend my time doing that? Do I think that that's the best use of time? Grando do you want to do it?

(38:01):

No. I, I like to do $10,000 per hour work, which is fine. The next project, you know, that to me is that, is that. And so, you know, that, that work's important, but it's not getting us the next project, which gets that designer moving to the next project to, you know, so that's, that's the important thing. So your time is the most valuable asset you have. You're not getting any more of it.

(38:21):

Exactly. Now that leads me to bullet point number three, which is dealing with the vendors. Okay. And I'm talking the tile shop, the flooring vendor, the, uh, the cabinet guy, the siding vendors, the lighting vendors, the plumbing vendors, the electrical electricians, because the electricians always screw up how they will hang the light. And so they always have to babysit them, the tile guy, like my actual subcontractor, who's laying the tile and exactly how they want to lay the tile. If they don't lay it in a herringbone and they lay it in a block and the client doesn't like it, well, we have to rip it off and we have to redo it. Whose job is that? It's the designer's job to make sure that everybody on the team knows exactly what they need to do. So they're talking to vendors, they're dealing with subs. How much time do you think that takes Bob

(39:16):

A lot? I mean, essentially our project manager and that's kind of what we kind of say, you know, Shelly she's head of design, head of project management. And because that's not a contractor, contractors are not good project envision us. They're not good project managers. They are with the people. But the designer is the one that really pushes that in, is working hand in hand with them

(39:36):

A hundred percent. And I think you nailed that because my designers just like your wife, Shelley, uh, they are responsible for holding the hand of the client. And, and if we have a client like a presale and we're building a house for someone, they have to hold the client through the process of design, but they also have to hold the client through the process of actual construction and making sure that the client's happy with their design and that the design gets executed with the subs properly up to the standard that the designer, uh, gave the client because the client is trusting the designer in delivering them the vision that they've painted for them before the house is even built. And so, again, that's a huge responsibility, uh, as a project manager slash designer, it's a huge responsibility because there's so much time and energy and, and attention to detail.

(40:30):

Uh, and that's a huge return on your time. If you have somebody that's willing and able to manage something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, let's go to the next one, putting together your spec sheet. So I literally just did this today because, uh, I have someone that's interested and we were going to pre-sell this house at 1.4 million. So I had to put together a spec sheet. Now, if you haven't put together a spec sheet, I'm telling there's a million things on this thing. It just it's like, it never ends. And, um, each one of those specs though, when it pertains to the designer, like, okay, what plumbing fixture did you pick for the powder bath? Okay. What's hub. Exactly. Did you pick for the master? Okay. What, what fixtures did you pick for the master shower? Okay. What closet? Uh, design did you go with? Okay. What tile did you go with and what, what, uh, how has that tile going to be late? Okay. I mean, that's like five. I could seriously, this could be a 40 minute podcast. If I just go over all the different things that I need on a spec sheet from my designer. So they have to put that together for us. How long do you think that's going to take Bob? Oh, Bob doesn't have answer. See, I got [inaudible].

(41:41):

I should have Shelly on this podcast today telling you how long

(41:44):

It takes to do all that stuff. I hours, you know, it's like, and I don't have the detail, you know, the detail. I don't like that type of work. Like I like putting together like the vision board, that spec sheet and all that stuff. I mean, and the time it takes, I mean, it's just like, oh yeah,

(42:00):

Yeah. And you're right. And it is it honestly, it does make me speechless as well. I, I hate it. Yeah. I don't like that detailed work because I know that that's quote, unquote busy work. If I'm trying to be the entrepreneur or the CEO, the CEO is not what that's, where I want to be. That's where I should be spending my time and not trying to figure out this stuff now. Um, is it important? It's super important. It's so important. Um, but it also is a question of return on time. Like if you're trying to run a business, is that your best use of time? So let's go onto the next one, spending time working with your contractor to make sure their design comes to life. Now, again, that's part of being the project manager. I kind of touched on that, but it is literally, and I tell this to any designer I work with and I, and I've told this to Jill a million times.

(42:49):

I go, Jill, your design is why we need you is why we hired you is why we love you. I need you to bring this design though, to life you can't, it's not just good enough for you to say, okay, here it is. Good luck. Because the first thing that's going to happen is the subcontractor, or even the general contractor is going to screw it up because there's too many moving pieces and they don't even understand the painting that you're trying to paint. You know, you're the artist like, how do you explain to me who doesn't even know how to use a paintbrush? Hey, this is the painting I want. Now here here's a picture. Go paint it.

(43:30):

What? Yeah, ain't happening? Yeah. I agree, man. Like, I think that they, uh, you know, uh, if you leave it to the contractor to come up with their own idea and you don't paint that picture and you don't have somebody guiding them through that process, that right down to the tile guy, how's he going to lay the way he likes to lay it, which might not be the current trend and how tiles laid, you know, it's like, so it's just kind of like when you think about it like that, it's like, those are the tweaks that kind of separate, you know, um, the good homes from the bad homes, you know, or the dated homes from the updated homes and, and, and you could be, you could screw it up and you're going to go backwards and maybe you don't get the highest price because of it.

(44:08):

Well, I'm great. And we'll go back to your house that, um, the house that you remodeled that was your home, but then you put it on the market. I mean, it comes back to the simplest of things and I can see your house in my eyes. And when I saw these two items, those two chairs on the porch, I said only Shelly would care that there's those two chairs swinging on the porch, you know? And I'm like, but, but when somebody drives by that house and sees that beautiful garage door with those two cool chairs on the porch, I go, they will say, where else have I seen that before? I've never seen that before. And that is, that is bringing your vision to life, man.

(44:48):

Yeah. It's so true. The only downside to that when you're living with a designer is things cost a lot, you know, like, you know, they, they like nice stuff. So I would say there's the, there's the other Thor and Tim. So yeah, but it is a huge, but you're right. It's that picture being painted and, and people coming through, like when we'd be sitting out there, people walking through our neighborhood, we'd be like, oh my God, those chairs are so nice. And oh, your front of your house looks so beautiful. And I'm just like, it's her vision, you know, her doing. Yeah.

(45:20):

But so the final point that I want to make is really, and this isn't going to be in every project. And Bob, I don't know if you run across it. And again, I think it's a little bit because of my strategy and how I like to pre-market things and how I like to leverage the product a little bit more, but spending time with potential buyers, maybe not a buyer that you have on contract, but potential buyers. Because again, when you, when you're an artist and you're painting a picture, how can you ask someone else to explain the picture that doesn't even know how to paint one? And so I'm the artist or I'm the guy, the agent, but I'm the guy that doesn't even know how to paint a picture. Now don't get me wrong. I mean, I have, I have an ability to, to have a vision.

(46:03):

I have ability to see what the market wants. I'm not a complete layman, but I'm also not Picasso. You know, I'm not the one that keep on painting a painting. So when I bring a client through a house that's framed for example, and it's just wood and they look around, most people, they can't see anything. All they see is like, actually their brain is like going on overload because they're confused because they're trying to look into a three-dimensional thing, but it actually looks like it's like five dimensional because you're looking through woods, you can't wear woods, walls, framed walls. You can't see, they're not defined. And it just looks like I look at people and I'm like, yeah, you're not really seeing it. And they're like, no, do you have a blueprint? I know I laid the blueprint down and then they're looking around like the blueprint going well, where's, what is that again?

(46:48):

I'm like, well, that's where the toilet goes. Oh, okay. And where's the bathroom. Well, next to the toilet. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, at that exact moment, I'm like, I go, it's hard to visualize it. Isn't it? And they're like, yeah. And I, and that's the whole point is that, why do I bring the designer in because the designer can now walk this potential client through her vision and hopefully sell the vision. Because if you can sell the vision, I can, pre-sell the house. And like our conversation in the last episodes, if I can sell a house before I ever have to put it on the market, just the staging costs alone is worth all of that.

(47:28):

Oh my God. Yeah. I was thinking that's probably a 5g saving, even on a small house, you know, when you, by the time you have it from the start to finish right there. So yeah. That's, and that, that is, you know, I haven't actually really had to, you know, have the opportunity to, um, pre-sell like you're doing, um, mainly because of that fear of not being able to relay what, what, what it is, what the projects. So we don't even list the project until the actual products done, you know, and because people can't see, you know, and so they don't quite understand that. And so I actually was just kind of mentioned earlier. I kind of learned like a lot, you know, just from our conversations about this whole topic, um, being able to go back through and think like, how can I implement that? Even on our small houses to potentially have the chance of pre-selling them, you know, they're entry level. So they sell fast, but why not save more money? You know, thinking about it in the end. Like then I don't, maybe I potentially don't have to pay, you know, buyer's agent fee if they just come in the door. Right. Cause we've, we've pre marketed it anyway. So it's just like that stage that save on the staging. Right. So we don't have to do that.

(48:30):

Well, and then also grand Oak, we are such a big believer in, you know, you should have your real estate license and, you know, we're big believer in being the agent, uh, as part of the whole process here, but you have a team like, and there's nothing wrong. I have a team. And so why can't I use that asset and say, Hey, here's a product it's going to attract a buyer and go to my team member. Who's my buyer's agent and say, Hey, buyer's agent. Yeah, you should go talk to this person about this. And if this isn't the right house, then maybe you can help them find the right house.

(49:03):

Yeah. Yeah. So it attracts business. That's a great, and it's so far ahead of the game. That's what I love about it. It's like, it's so you're right. It's helping out all the team members the whole time by being able to do that and bring in that level of business. Super cool. Yeah. I think the thing to go back to with the return on time, just to sum it up, you know, time is your most important asset. Um, you're not getting any more of it, but when you're starting out, maybe you have more time than money, right. With your first project. And so you have to take those baby steps and just, just what you've done repeated that 10 year vision of where you want to be. Um, and then walking yourself backwards and saying, you're going to have to, you know, maybe a potentially be the agent, a little bit of the builder, maybe, you know, you also have to be the designer.

(49:45):

So you have to have some of those skills, but you know, eventually you're going to get too busy if you're growing a business and you can't do it all. You know? And so I think that's probably the key thing, you know, just taking it. Cause we went to the high end, you know, that having all of these major players great back to the person, gotta have some agents skills, got to have some builder skills, got to have some design skills. Cause that's what you're going to be able to recognize when you're finding that person down the road,

(50:09):

[inaudible] you summed it up. I couldn't have done it better myself. And, and the point of talking about this is we're in the survival phase. So let's, let's think about this. We're still in the survival phase. Do do Barbara. I expect you to have these resources. No, but we want to give you a bigger vision of where you go. Because at the beginning, just like Bob and I, I was doing all of these jobs, you know, I did every single one of them. And then I realized, man, return on time, Tam return on time. How can you fill that position? And I gradually went out and found somebody and I gradually did it. And like I said, Jill and I, this was 10 years. It took me 10 years to get to where I am. So it took Bob five years to get where he is with Shelley.

(50:51):

Like, we're not asking anybody here to not try to do this themselves and to not take on a lot of what needs to be done in any project. And again, back to the very beginning of this podcast, when I told you about the guy that I talked to, who'd literally took on every single, single aspect of the build he had, he told me, he goes, Tim, am I crazy? And I said, you're crazy, but let me tell you, you will know more than anybody as you build out your business. So this could kill you. But if it doesn't kill you, you'll be stronger. And you know what, you'll know a hell of a lot more about how to succeed on your next flips and your 20th Phillip and your 50th flip and whatever you keep doing, because you literally felt the pain of every single decision of every single action that needed to be taken to, to fulfill this house. So, you know what? I have nothing but respect for that person. I have 110% respect for that person. I'm not sitting here saying that you shouldn't try to do it, but just know what you're actually trying to do. Right.

(51:54):

I get excited for somebody choosing the path of pain. There's a lot of growth along it. Yeah. Yeah.

(52:03):

Do you have any, I think you summed it up. I think you summed up this podcast really well. So again guys, you know what, we're just trying to bring the value. Well, if you guys want to know more about what we're doing here at a value driven investor, just go to value-driven investor.com. Through that website, you can join our private Facebook group where we're going to have a ton of value, add content. We're going to have resources. And we want to load that thing up with as much information as we can because you know, one of the best things that happened to me, uh, was yesterday, and this is like so cool. Like it's so cool. And uh, he's going to be on the podcast. Uh, his name's Ryan, uh, he called me yesterday and he goes, Tim, Tim, I did it. I'm like what?

(52:44):

I just did that flip. You wholesaled me. Remember you wholesale me that I'm like, well, yeah, I remember it. And so, well, yeah, I just flipped it and you know what? I made 10,000 more than I thought it would because the market's so good. And so I looked at them and some people might say, well, so Tim, how much did you lose out on that deal? Because you wholesaled it and you didn't have to, you could have kept it. And I say, yeah, but who did I help get started so that they can have life on their terms. And so that, that message from my buddy, Ryan, who I will have on this podcast to talk about how I was able to help them, um, it meant everything. And that's exactly why Bob and I sit here and talk about value driven investor, because money's great, but doing this podcast and giving back what we've gotten in from life and just from our adventure, uh, is one value driven investors all about don't you agree, grant them

(53:39):

A hundred percent man, a hundred percent agree with that. Giving back is the ticket, your legacy it's, you know, being able to help other people and build the relationships. That's how you'll be remembered.

(53:48):

So that's awesome. Grando thanks again, buddy. And, uh, we're out.

(53:54):

Thanks for listening to the value driven investor podcast, where we lead by giving for more information about our community and what's new visit value driven investor.com. The value-driven investor podcast was produced by digital legend media in Minneapolis, build the or legend digital legend media.com.